We should be Very Alarmed at this development. 

"NKato" (NKato) 04/05/2018 at 09:48 • Filed to: Dumb pols

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Imagine getting a speeding ticket because you went faster than the speed limit for a mile, but there is no camera or police there.

That’s right, your car was ratting on you.

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pip bip - choose Corrour > NKato 04/05/2018 at 09:54

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maybe there was a police chopper/plane above them?

crowmolly > NKato 04/05/2018 at 09:56

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I remember hearing of something like this when EZPass was introduced.

fintail > NKato 04/05/2018 at 10:06

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Maybe this could finally cause a revolt against the overcompensated unfireable overpensioned “authorities” in this region. Maybe, probably not, but we can dream.

Comments on PNW news sites are always amusing, a magnet for the bitter old crackpot demographic.

Chuckles > NKato 04/05/2018 at 10:06

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So they tracked it by physically placing a GPS data tracker in the car? Or was it tracking the driver’s phone?

Chuckles > crowmolly 04/05/2018 at 10:08

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Even now in 2018, I know people who refuse to get an EZ-Pass because they think Big Brother will issue speeding tickets if your time between toll plazas is too low.

BigBlock440 > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:10

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Using a physical GPS device, like the ones they want to use to implement a mileage tax.

Chuckles > BigBlock440 04/05/2018 at 10:12

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Paying a mileage tax isn’t a completely terrible idea. The people who use roads more should probably contribute more for their upkeep.

I just can’t see how they’d enforce this. What’s to keep you from leaving the device at home?

They should probably just stick to a gas tax.

benjrblant > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:14

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Why can’t a mileage tax be assessed by an odometer reading at an annual/biannual inspection or smog check?

SmugAardvark > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:15

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I remember hearing that regularly back when I lived in Florida, that the state highway patrol was using EZ-Pass to measure times between toll booths. Never heard about anyone getting a ticket because of it, but it was still a bit unsettling.

In reality, with camera and OCR technology being where its at, they really wouldn’t need an EZ-Pass to determine if someone was averaging above the speed limit between two points.

functionoverfashion > fintail 04/05/2018 at 10:17

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Comments on PNW news sites are always amusing, a magnet for the bitter old crackpot demographic.

FTFY - NPR disabled their comment section entirely back in 2016 (I think) because every single article was turning into a mud-slinging hatefest in the comments. Kind of like Facebook.

BigBlock440 > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:18

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I just can’t see how they’d enforce this. What’s to keep you from leaving the device at home?

Probably plugs into the OBD port or is otherwise physically installed, like a license plate. Or they didn’t think that far ahead yet, I don’t know.

But the point was, they could issue speeding tickets using it if they wanted to.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:19

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I mean, they could, but if they did, EVERYONE would dump their EZ-Pass.

Chuckles > benjrblant 04/05/2018 at 10:19

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That makes sense to me. I wasn’t saying that I agreed with their plan, just that a mileage based tax isn’t a completely unreasonable idea.

I think that the current gas based tax is way easier to enforce. You literally can’t drive unless you pay the tax at the pump (or steal your gas). With a mileage tax, not everyone gets their vehicles inspected on time, and unsavory people might lie about the odometer reading.

Chuckles > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 04/05/2018 at 10:21

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Right. Meanwhile I’ve probably saved dozens of hours by not waiting at tollbooths for the last decade.

fintail > functionoverfashion 04/05/2018 at 10:21

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It’s even funnier here, as this area is supposed to be so progressive, but there is a significant demographic who maybe just fell out of a basket.

Also often the ones who were able to buy housing here when it was affordable for normal working people, now they moan and cry when their winning lottery tickets carry taxes linked to market value, and act like the second coming of Warren Buffett just for being lucky.

functionoverfashion > crowmolly 04/05/2018 at 10:22

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Even in New Jersey, where they monitor speeds through the toll plazas, says they won’t generally issue tickets (just warning letters) in part because they don’t want to deter people from having the device that makes traffic flow better in the first place!

Chuckles > BigBlock440 04/05/2018 at 10:22

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All the more reason to keep my OBD1 Miata.

The whole thing just seems like a lot of hassle and resources to get money that they currently get just by selling gas.

average user > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:23

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I remember that they do this in some parts of Europe. I think it is France.

DipodomysDeserti > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:24

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You enforce it by requiring people to report their odometer reading every year when they renew their registration.

BigBlock440 > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:29

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I think that the current gas based tax is way easier to enforce. You literally can’t drive unless you pay the tax at the pump (or steal your gas).

Or drive an electric car, which is why they’re thinking about moving to mileage-based

crowmolly > functionoverfashion 04/05/2018 at 10:30

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I can see them doing it eventually. When the take rate of EZPass is super high and there’s no more booths, flip the switch and start ticketing.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:31

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DOZENS! Oh, for sure, Oklahoma has toll roads all over the place. There’s real satisfaction that comes with seeing some guy that blew by you a few miles earlier sitting in a long line of holiday traffic at the toll booth - ha!

Chuckles > DipodomysDeserti 04/05/2018 at 10:31

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Would a person self report? Or would it be checked by a mechanic or DMV official? If they self report, they could lie. If it’s a mechanic reporting, some will be honest but others won’t. I live in a state with safety inspections and not everybody plays by the rules. If it’s a DMV official physically looking at your odometer, that’s a lot of time and resources for something that I would otherwise do through the mail. That also might encourage more people to roll back their odometers.

I just don’t see how a mileage based tax is better than a gas tax, and it certainly isn’t easier.

Chuckles > DipodomysDeserti 04/05/2018 at 10:31

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Would a person self report? Or would it be checked by a mechanic or DMV official? If they self report, they could lie. If it’s a mechanic reporting, some will be honest but others won’t. I live in a state with safety inspections and not everybody plays by the rules. If it’s a DMV official physically looking at your odometer, that’s a lot of time and resources for something that I would otherwise do through the mail. That also might encourage more people to roll back their odometers.

I just don’t see how a mileage based tax is better than a gas tax, and it certainly isn’t easier.

kanadanmajava1 > NKato 04/05/2018 at 10:31

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I’m quite good at obeying speed limits so I wouldn’t worry too much.

One of our company vans had a monitoring system on board to follow how different drivers used it. We were testing if it could be useful for all of our vehicles. Nearly all of our vehicles wear company colors and logos. We are government owned company so other people are watching our vehicles more keenly than many others.

The system was rigged to a map that had speed limits and other kinds of road data. It could process an evaluation of each trip. Every speeding occasion was shown on the map and it also used Google Street View to show the exact place where the speeding occurred. Besides the speeding it also monitored excessive accelerations, brakings and cornering. It also complained about not following the gear selection instructions of the dash.

As it wasn’t attached to any other traffic systems it couldn’t of course monitor bad traffic light behaviour. But I think it could be possible at least in our most densely populated areas in where we have a traffic control centers and not just timed lights.

We used it only for trial period and the traffic violations didn’t cause any punishments. I’m pretty sure that such system would reduce traffic dicketry while using company vehicles if we would have some internal penalty system (or forwarding the info to the Police after couple of warnings).

average user > NKato 04/05/2018 at 10:31

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I am not so much worried about state action than private actions. State action (a legislation or a rule) can be protested and litigated, and most likely ruled unconstitutional (like red light cameras that also rely on cameras and sensors to send tickets to you).

However, i am more worried about those trackers used by private companies like insurance that can store your driving data, know where you are, SELL your driving data (incl. location data), and jack up your rates based on your driving habits. Progressive and other insurance companies have been selling these for a while now.

There was a case several years ago where a car rental company planted one of these trackers on their cars, slap a huge “fine” for any ranter that goes over the speed limit and bury that clause in the fine print. They got sued.

Urambo Tauro > NKato 04/05/2018 at 10:36

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Guaranteed ticketing every time one speeds would definitely skew the 85th percentile. There would be a lot more drivers driving unnecessarily slow, for fear of accidentally breaking the limit by one lousy mph.

Chuckles > BigBlock440 04/05/2018 at 10:37

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That’s a good point that I hadn’t considered. It’s certainly something to keep in mind for the future, but if we want to encourage more people to drive EVs maybe we shouldn’t penalize them for now. I don’t know the numbers, but don’t EVs still represent a pretty small percentage of cars on the road? I feel like I see maybe one a week.

Chuckles > crowmolly 04/05/2018 at 10:45

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I’ve heard that they’re trying to switch to a camera based system instead of transponders to increase take rate. They take a picture of your license plate and your EZ-Pass is linked to that plate. I could see that someday.

If they get crazy with speeding tickets it will just discourage people from taking toll roads, reducing their revenue. Better for them to allow speeding and just slowly raise tolls every year like they do now.

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > functionoverfashion 04/05/2018 at 10:56

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I routinely drive through the toll booths in NJ at 40mph(If I don’t I run a serious risk of being flattened by a semi running the toll booth at 40) and I’ve never gotten so much as a blip from the state about it.

it never ceases to amaze me the number of people that don’t have an ez-pass in NJ. I honestly don’t know how you get around without one. NY is moving to just taking pictures of license plates at their toll booths, but they are keeping the ez-pass discount. not getting one just means you pay more. Their TV ads for it have a guy literally throwing money out of his car as he goes through the toll booth to illustrate that you’re throwing money away by not having one.

DipodomysDeserti > Chuckles 04/05/2018 at 10:57

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Tens of millions of people self report their taxes every year. You’d probably have a similar instance of fraud. Really isn’t that complicated of an issue.

facw > SmugAardvark 04/05/2018 at 11:00

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From what I’ve read, EZ pass is never used for ticketing, but they definitely track them to monitor traffic flow. Even on non-toll roads (apparently those signs that tell you how long to specific interchanges are often powered by non-tolling EZ pass sensors).

Chuckles > DipodomysDeserti 04/05/2018 at 11:02

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It certainly could work, it just seems like it has a lot more complications than a tax you pay every time you buy gas. It also ensures that you don’t skip out on any taxes if you sell your car before you pay those taxes.

Cheaper gas would be appreciated by everyone but we’d get used to it quickly, and then complain when we owe over a hundred bucks every year for mileage. The mileage tax would also anger the “I bought my EV because I’m frugal” crowd.

facw > NKato 04/05/2018 at 11:04

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We are rapidly approaching a point where it will be possible to automatically catch all traffic infractions (at least on highways). I don’t think that is a bad thing in and of itself, but it will require adaptations. You won’t have a good system if you just treat it as a profit center. There needs to be a bit of leeway, and fines should be much lower, since there’s no need for a large fine for deterrence purposes if you can catch everyone. You also need to make sure speed limits are actually reasonable for the road.

Azrek > NKato 04/05/2018 at 11:04

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Good thing I still have a hammer to smash this thing.

Chuckles > facw 04/05/2018 at 11:10

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Reasonable speed limits and signage are key. They’d have to account for people’s speedometers being slightly off. Something like “Speed limit 75. Fines start at 80mph” could work. It tells you the recommended limit and allows some wiggle room. Sure you could set cruise control at 79 but you’d better hope it’s accurate.

AdverseMartyr > DipodomysDeserti 04/05/2018 at 11:37

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Ferrari laughs at how naive you are. “I didn’t even drive 500 miles this year. It’s a garage queen.”

TheRealBicycleBuck > crowmolly 04/05/2018 at 12:37

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The Turner Turnpike A uthority (Oklaho ma turnpike between OKC and Tulsa) used to cooperate with state troopers stationed at the toll booths. If the speed was too high, they handed over the trip receipts to an officer who would promptly write you a ticket.

The potential for abuse is real.

TheRealBicycleBuck > NKato 04/05/2018 at 12:38

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The alternative is to check the mileage during the annual inspection and take a percentage of that as a road use tax. Same revenue. Less invasive.

ranwhenparked > benjrblant 04/05/2018 at 18:22

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I think that is a better idea. But, there’s also the issue of should you really be paying the state for all your miles for the whole year, even if you took a lot of long trips out of state? And, does the gas tax go away, or is a mileage tax in addition to it? What about registration fees, do they get adjusted?

ranwhenparked > BigBlock440 04/05/2018 at 18:23

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Could always have two separate systems - gas tax for ICE cars, mileage tax for electric cars. Come up with some sort of algorithm that roughly equalizes them based on the average person’s annual mileage and fuel consumption.